2005-01-31 [Forbidden Rampage]: Well on the other hand hy would nature, purely by chance, happen to come an exact number for everything? It is too exact to be purely by chance. I believe that it is also called the "divine proportion"

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: maybe because this number proved most able to withstand external pressures?

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: I'm not sure, it's just speculation, but it's probably something along those lines

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: I can understand why something like a nautilus shell or sunflower would have growth rate that follows the 'Fibonacci series' - due to cell division having mathematical increments. I'm not sure where the ratios lie on a human, but a nose is not another layer of the lip, so why would they have the proportions of phi. It is quite extraordinary to think the ratio of phi would be the best adaption for all enviromental conditions. Maybe it occurs in those proportions that don't effect adaption but somehow indicate health. Apparently we like symmetrical faces because that is an indication of health and freedom of disease. However, is a building designed with the ratio of phi any less likely to fall

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: down than one that is built on some other ratio? Maybe it is something to do with the way our brain works, but then if animals also have ratios of phi in their proportions, it would have to be in a very primitive part of the brain in that case. Wait a minute, I remember learning in music that musical scales are designed in a similar way. I just checked and the Golden Mean occurs in music also. Now what evolutionary purpose would that serve?

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: It would be interesting to test the theory to see whether we really do find the ratio of phi more attractive, or if that the idea that it does is derived from some philosopher's contemplation of a nautilus shell. He might have come up with the idea, that if this ratio occurs in nature in such things as nautilus shells, then it must have some meaning, and so decided to incorporate it into art and music as the ideal ratio.

2005-02-06 [Forbidden Rampage]: I as actually thinking the other day while I was running about the correlation between music and the Divine Proportion. Maybe the way that the notes are arranged could possibly have something to do with whether or not the sound is appealing to our minds or not. Maybe the great composers of the past were on to something that we didn't know about.

2005-02-06 [Amtharnis]: Do you know whether the divine proportion occurs outside of western music? I can't remember precisely, but I think you can create the same note but on a different octave using the fibonacci series with strings. I'm not sure, but sound frequencies may also follow the golden mean, in which case the composers just figured out something that occurs naturally. In that case you would expect the golden mean to occur in other musical styles other than western music. I don't know whether all that is correct or not, though. It would be interesting to find out. Anyone around here study music?

2005-02-07 [wwwwwwwww]: A divine proportion in music? Hmm.. it's possible I suppose. There are alot of ties between music and math, but perhaps it's really math that's tied to music. I like to think of music as the sound given off when the universe was created, and all music is the attempt to recreate that sound. Of course, I can't present much evidence.

2005-02-08 [Forbidden Rampage]: I wish that I did study music. I find that I lack the patience to do more than control a basic grasp of up means high note and down means low note. It isnt really my cup of milk however. In case you were wondering I really dont like tea.

2005-02-08 [wwwwwwwww]: pick up a guitar and start playing.. you don't need any patience whatsoever and the sounds you produce are as good a study of music as anything else :P

2005-02-10 [Forbidden Rampage]: good Idea. I may just take that up.

2005-02-10 [DeleriumJ]: take lessons. i took two years of lessons and it was a really great foundation. a chord book is good to have too.

2005-02-15 [wwwwwwwww]: I regret to inform everyone that for the remainder of the month of February I shall be unable to maintain this wiki page, due to a serious cut down in my "free" time. I will re-enter discussion and activity around elftown in about a month. Apologies for any inconveniences. -Imp

2005-02-20 [eye of the storm]: I studied the psychology of music. what "sounds good" is actually quite mathmatical, and while one can learn music on one's own, it is a lot easier taught. I did a project on different music types and their effect on humans, mind and body. I don't have all the answers, but I do know about music.

2005-02-20 [Amtharnis]: Oh, thankyou, thespian royalty, I knew maths was involved in music somehow. It is an interesting subject, the effect of music on the human brain. It is little wonder that music is considered such a spiritual thing.

2005-02-21 [Forbidden Rampage]: That is very true It can be a very spiritual thing when you listen to music that speaks to you in just the right way. I love the way that my adrenaline flows when I listen to certain songs.

2005-02-23 [Locke8uu]: Today they use certain sounds to induce certain activities of the brain, such as thinking and meditation. What they do is study peoples brain waves while in these states and then match those brain waves with sound waves. When the person hears these particular sounds the brain is persuaded into the state of mind for which the music was designed.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Hello guys. I consider myself both a musician and a philosopher (whether I am nether, one or the other, or both is a subjective opinion anyway) so maybe I could be of some help here. I'll try to give you what information on math, music and "sounding good" that I know of.

2005-03-01 [Amtharnis]: That would be great, Simuir!

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: I hope it's OK for me to burst in like this. If not, please flame me and I'll go hide under a rock. Now that that's out of the way, let me take it from the beginning and provide you with a few definitions: In music, you generally combine "notes" sequentially (and quite often simultaneously, this is what makes a "chord") to create songs. Each "note" has a specific base frequency; all instances of that note share this approximate base frequency (overtones are not relevant to this definition, but they *are* relevant to music production). A "scale" is the full set of notes that are utilized to produce some part of a song. "Pitch" corresponds vaguely to frequency (higher pitch, higher frequency).